New Covenant Grace

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Universalism (Ultimate Salvation)

A word of caution: It’s a fact that some people will unsubscribe from our website because of this message – that’s fine though. It seems that there’s a massive split happening in the church world over this exact same issue at the moment.
 
We are however not afraid of including links to other websites that propagate universalism either – people need to make up their minds about the truth for themselves. We encourage even those who do not hold the Universalist view to ascertain why they hold onto their beliefs for themselves, because somewhere down the road they might be confronted with this doctrine.
 
This will be our only message on Universalism for the time being.
 

Universalism (Ultimate Salvation)

Universalism is the belief that every person on the planet will be saved, whether they believe in God and want to know Him, or not. There are some slight differences within the Universalist camp as well, such as when everybody gets saved. The one group believes that human beings can definitely go through this life unsaved, but that God will ultimately (after this life) save everybody when “every knee will bow and every tongue confess to God” (Rom 14:11). Yet we see that when a king conquers another country and his captives bow their knees to him and confess their defeat, that they don’t necessarily become his friends or allies. In most cases it only strengthens their hatred towards him.

The other camp of Universalists believes that mankind’s sin never actually separated them from God and that every person who lives on the planet is part of God’s family, whether they believe in Him or not. They believe that the animosity expressed by the majority of mankind towards God is apparently only due to a “feeling” of separation from God, which is based on their interpretation of Col 1:21, which says “And you, who were once alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works…” From the context it’s clear though that Paul the apostle was addressing the church at Colosse (see Col 1:2) in this verse, which he clearly affirmed by saying “YOU, who were once alienated…” not implying the whole world.

This belief actually almost borders on Gnosticism, note the striking similarities:

Gnosticism: The belief that sin doesn’t exist (and people therefore don’t need to be born again) and that by attaining a certain level of conscious awareness called “Gnosis” you are freed from the bondage and limitations of the material world.

Universalism: The belief that everybody in the world is saved (and therefore don’t need to be born again) and people simply need to attain a “conscious awareness” that they are free from the bondage and limitations of the material world.


The Indwelling Holy Spirit

Another big problem with this second view is that Universalism totally disregards the fact that the Holy Spirit is the GUARANTEE of a person’s salvation. The Bible shows us that if someone doesn’t have the Holy Spirit then they are not saved. The Holy Spirit is also received by BELIEVING:

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. (Eph 1:13-14 NKJV emphasis added)

Unbelievers actually have another spirit in them and there’s NO getting around this:

…according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience. (Eph 2:2b NKJV)


God Created Puppets

The Universalist view negates any faith response from a believer. They imply that we are merely victims of circumstance – puppets in God’s grand game. God’s will in the end will override man’s freedom to choose.  Of course it’s God’s will that nobody should perish (1 Timothy 2:4), but if God’s will always prevails, why doesn’t He reach into our material world right now and put an end to all the pain, hurt, suffering and destruction around us as well? Simply because He gave us the right to choose. Our choices carry consequences. He created mankind with a free will and said to him: “You rule the earth” (Gen 1:28). Adam did not rule and therefore lost his authority – bottom line. It’s therefore a far stretch to assume that God will force His will onto mankind in the afterlife if He doesn’t also do it now.


Accepting a Gift

It’s one thing to hear the gospel, but another to accept it. If someone is given a gift for their birthday, they have to accept it to make it their own. The Universalist view dictates that the person who is giving the gift can be left standing and knocking at the door with the gift in his hand, without actually taking it from him. They then believe that someday (after many, many years) the birthday boy will unknowingly step out his front door and be ambushed by that person who will force him to take the gift.

Here on earth if someone forces their love on other person without that person’s consent, it is considered to be rape. And yet this is exactly what Universalists accuse God of… He is like a life saver, pushing us into the swimming pool just so He can pull us out again.


What about a relationship?

Having a relationship with someone after all implies mutual trust between both parties – it’s about intimacy, love, pleasure and fulfillment. Yet Universalists propagate that in spite of a person’s cursing, ridiculing, mocking and loathing of God, even denying His very existence, that such a person is still God’s family even if they don’t accept Christ as their Savior. This kind of teaching voids mankind of any form of responsibility for their actions or beliefs, which is not what the Bible teaches. And most importantly, if God can not have a personal relationship with a person, why would He adopt them into His family where it’s ALL about relationship?

Without Faith, the Gospel Profits Nothing

The writer of Hebrews talks about how Israel heard the gospel, but rejected it – they didn’t mix it with faith:

For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them [Israel]; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. (Heb 4:2 NKJV, annotations added)

So it’s definitely possible for the gospel to be unprofitable to us. Hebrews 4 talks about how those who believe enter into God’s rest. Israel’s perishing in the desert was a type and shadow of how unbelief can hinder someone from entering into this rest (Heb 4:11).

WHEN Does a Person Receive the Holy Spirit?

One question that makes Universalists do some incredible scriptural gymnastics and avoid the topic, is when you ask them WHEN did they receive the Holy Spirit. They cannot answer that they received it BEFORE being born/incarnated into this world, since that would mean they had to have been born straight from their mother’s womb already filled with the Holy Spirit. And of course Jesus said the following to Nicodemus:

Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water [his mother's womb] and the Spirit [spiritual birth], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5 MKJV, annotations added)

This would also mean that they entered into this world without a sinful nature and were never actually separated from God, which of course contradicts scripture:

And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience; among whom we also had our way of life in times past, in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Eph 2:1-3, MKJV)

But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ  (by grace you have been saved)… (Eph 2:4-5 WEB, emphasis added)

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses (Col 2:13 ESV, emphasis added)

We can clearly see that there definitely was a time when we were separated from God.

On the other hand Universalists can’t say that they received the Holy Spirit during THIS lifetime, since that would mean that there had to have been a specific date and time and place where they confessed the Lord Jesus with their lips and believed in their heart that God raised Him from the dead and they were born again, after which they received the Holy Spirit as the guarantee of their inheritence (Eph 1:13). And of course, this would destroy their entire doctrine that EVERYBODY is saved.

Another variant that is doing the rounds is that Christians have not received the Holy Spirit yet, and will only receive Him on the day of Judgment when they will be made perfect into the image of Christ. This of course contradicts Heb 10:14 which says He HAS perfected forever those who are sanctified. And the entire book of Hebrews, especially the next chapter, is full of statements about how this is for all who BELIEVE. This also brings up the question that if such a person has not yet received the Holy Spirit, by whose power are they healing the sick? Whose fruit are they manifesting?


God’s Faith

Another common Universalist view is that since faith is gift of the Spirit, He is solely responsible for making us place that faith in Christ. On the one hand the Universalist believes that ALL will be saved, regardless of what they believe or whether they even believe at all. On the other hand they believe that IF faith is required in order to be saved, then God will give us that faith, no… force that faith onto us. They support this by very cleverly “bending” Gal 2:20 from the King James Version which talks about “living by the faith of God” to support their view.

Jesus however clearly said we need to BELIEVE in Him to be saved:

“And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:40 NKJV)

Also, since faith is listed as a gift of the Holy Spirit in Galatians 5, it also means that a person needs to have the Holy Spirit first before the gift of faith can actually manifest through them.

If God were somehow going to save everybody, why didn’t He just plainly state it? Why put His Son through all the anguish of dying on a cross if He was going to save everybody in any case? Universalists answer this last question by saying that the purpose of the cross was to show the depth of God’s love towards mankind, to illustrate the profundity of what God would do for us. But would the Father really have His Son slaughtered like that if all it accomplished was just to have people change their “opinion” of Him? Of course not! Jesus died on that cross to end the Old Covenant that God had entered into with Israel – the only way to get out of a covenant is for one of the parties to die. And with Christ’s death a New Covenant was written with blood, extending the offer of salvation to the entire world, in fact to anyone who would simply believe in Christ.

In spite of all this, the Universalists are still able to make just about any scripture fit in with their view by doing some impressive “gymnastics” with the Bible verses. For every argument they have a counter argument. For every scripture they have a counter scripture. In the end it boils down to a personal choice. Even those who don’t hold the Universalist view need to establish for themselves why they don’t.

When, however, the Spirit comes, who reveals the truth about God, he will lead you into all the truth. (John 16:13a, GNB)

For those who haven’t ever been confronted with Universalism, here is one of the best websites. Note that the questions asked and statements made will make most people who have not considered Universalism before question a substantial amount of what they believe. The arguments are powerful, sobering and very cleverly formulated. For some it might be a Pandora’s Box, better left untouched…

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-is-not-in-the-bible.htm

Share and Enjoy

  • Andre van der Merwe says:

    There are RIGHTEOUS and UNRIGHTEOUS people walking on the planet. If everybody on the planet is saved, Go will have to apologize to all the people who died in the flood.

    Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
    Gen 6:6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
    Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

    Gen 6:11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight, and the earth was filled with violence.
    Gen 6:12 And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.
    Gen 6:13 And God said to Noah, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

    Gen 7:20 The waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep.
    Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind.
    Gen 7:22 Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died.
    Gen 7:23 He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens. They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark.

    Gen 8:18 So Noah went out, and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him.
    Gen 8:19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every bird, everything that moves on the earth, went out by families from the ark.
    Gen 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and took some of every clean animal and some of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
    Gen 8:21 And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.

    Gen 9:13 I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth.
    Gen 9:14 When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds,
    Gen 9:15 I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. (MKJV)

    February 5, 2013 at 5:29 pm
  • Andre van der Merwe says:

    It was GOD who made the covenant with Noah after the flood, never to destroy the earth with a flood again.

    Why would God make a covenant if it wasn’t Him who did the killing?

    Abraham once reasoned with God not to destroy Sodom and Gamorra, note again, He reasoned with GOD! He didn’t reason with Satan (see Gen 18). The deal in the end was that if they could find 10 righteous people there the cities would be spared.

    But it wasn’t. So again, who was behind the killing?

    Also, who turned Lot’s wife into a pillar of salt?

    December 31, 2012 at 8:26 pm
  • Andre van der Merwe says:

    If ALL the world was saved, who was Jesus talking about when He spoke of “the World” in the following verses?

    John 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict THE WORLD concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because THEY do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. (Emphasis added).

    Clearly there are some people who still need to be convicted of the SIN of unbelief in Jesus Christ!!

    December 31, 2012 at 11:04 am
  • Andre van der Merwe says:

    Every ark in the bible is a picture of Jesus Christ.

    Gen.6:14 “make an ark of gopher wood (wood representing humanity), rooms you shall make in the ark (3 levels in the ark) and pitch it within and without the pitch.”

    The Hebrew word for pitch is atone, therefore, Jesus Christ, Noah’s ark, has made atonement for us inside & out, inward & outward redemption. Every man has been atoned FOR in the humanity of Jesus, but not every man has received the atonement.

    Gen.7:8 God told Noah to take clean AND UNCLEAN beasts into the ark.

    This is symbolic of every man (saved and unsaved) being taken into the body of Jesus, Noah’s ark, on the cross. Everything that was clean & unclean in the old world that ended, the Old covenant was wrapped up in the humanity of Jesus Christ and done away with through the cross. The judgment of God fell upon the vehicle we were in, namely Jesus Christ. John 12:31-32 Jesus drew all of the worlds judgment upon him self, bringing us into a new world, a new kingdom where our judgment is PAST, not future. In Jesus Christ, Noah’s ark, we landed in a new world where the curse is reversed.

    November 27, 2012 at 3:44 pm
  • WMD says:

    Yes, that IS the question. One imagines that at the judgment seat an accused party has opportunity to answer the judge. When faced with ultimate love then who would not believe Truth? On the other hand, we see the rich man in the flames with Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham and that man regretting prior to the final judgment and yet not being able to take action. He regrets being caught and wants to protect his brethren without believing but having been shown his end. How can one have faith in what one already knows? The Presupposition is that when faced with Love then one will not be able to help Loving back. There is satan, however, to consider–who knowing God, rejected him. So we move on to the gospel of Peter–or something by a similar name–which speaks of the ultimate end of the sinner; for we know that all who Love will not wish that ANY should perish but will be Like Father and \’the effectual, fervent PRAYER of a righteous man availeth much,\’ and will they not pray? But who will learn from a lesson of hell which is not believed to be forever? So when \”There is time no more,\” and forever has ended then those who would be there endlessly are coughed up and at reception at the throne of Grace are they smitten with the Love and changed in the heart or cast away. And if they are cast away and time is no more then is forever possibly beyond the time of Repenting at the throne? Or are they cast away and the Saints pray…and those who know Forever in hell are Rescued, changed…with the angels? All have been threatened with the sure punishment in eternal hell as even in the Book of Enoch. With no chance of parole. Would Gratefulness Overcome? God has it within His means to maneuver Circumstances to change men–within…but he will not change them himself, where it Counts, will.<3+W–

    November 15, 2012 at 3:22 am
  • photophy says:

    I appreciate the discussion here…

    For what it is worth, I have a degree in theology and 40 years as a Christian in several movements… I am not a “Universalist” (and have researched what the term means :) , but neither do I believe that faith is the one good work we do to get in on the deal that God is offering (Eph. 2:8-10). Faith simply agrees with what God has already made true in Christ Jesus by what He accomplished on the Cross by His initiative alone. Much of the confusion about all this springs from the fact that we do not define our terms and assume we know what the other person means by the terms he is using. First, we should define what we mean by “Saved”, “in Christ”, “Atonement”, “Reconciliation”, “Faith” and the like—then try to understand what they mean by the same terms, before slinging the “Universalist” or “Gnostic” label in unhelpful judgment.

    Yes, I believe there is a hell that begins now—but God IS “not willing that any should perish” and is ultimately concerned about relationship, not “balancing” the theological “books”, else we are ALL damned. How many people are reconciled from God’s side of the relationship (2 Cor. 5:14-6:2)? Yes, men need to respond to live a reconciled life—be “saved”—and receive the benefits of the relationship that God is offering. Yet, there really is no “instamatic crucifier” in heaven that custom-crucifies Christ for you when you say the “sinner’s prayer”. “It is finished”, means “finished”… What a scandal—LoL! First Adam messed us all up without our permission and Christ, Second Adam, saved us with our permission… Yet we need to participate to enjoy salvation… Sometimes God visits people directly and the light of revelation goes on in their hearts. Sometimes it happens through the preaching of the Gospel and their response by faith to willingly participate in the relationship God is offering. But the Good News is not man’s side of the relationship with their failure to respond and reminding men of their sins—it is declaring God’s side of the relationship—”You are reconciled from God’s side, now you ‘be reconciled from your side!’”

    It is not heresy to preach God’s side of the relationship—it is the Gospel! Sin, hell and judgement have been made to be the central theme of the prominent Galatian bewitchment pseudo-gospel so long, preaching reconciliation and the new covenant seems like it has to be some heresy to a lot of the church. “Universalism” is the most recent tag to dismiss preaching not approved by the religious spirit mistaken for Holy Spirit in so many places.

    A note about Grace Communion International… I have met the leaders there and know their story… These men heard the message of Grace and realized they were essentially a cult with bad theology. They have made every effort to connect with mainstream evangelicals and reform themselves at great personal cost. They have reached out to well respected theologians across the board. They are not Universalists by any means. If we are truly orthodox, we should support and encourage them, not slander them with popular dismissive labels.

    Please take some time to understand that Trinitarian theology is orthodox. Universalism is not even related. Universal Reconciliation and Universalism are not the same… Jesus has been made too small for too long and the implications of the incarnation completely underestimated. Please check it out…

    There is really no such thing as “Trinitarian Universalism”—it is a non sequitur… This is the theological equivalent of walking into a garage and randomly pointing to a car being repaired and saying that “the problem is clearly a fouled spark plug in the transmission.” :)

    Here is a start on why there is no such thing as “Trinitarian Universalism” by Steve McVey, a Baptist PhD Theologian:
    http://gracewalkministries.blogspot.com/search?q=Trinitarian+Universalism

    Let’s avoid foolish quarreling about ultimate destinations of the dead and help the living now with the Good News! God actually thinks the cross was enough to reconcile all men—now you enjoy your reconciliation by living in union with your loving Father.

    Blessings!

    June 6, 2012 at 9:25 am
  • Andre van der Merwe says:

    I guess if God will save EVERYONE then He must have been a little confused when He wiped out the entire planet with a flood, except for Noah and his family…

    God must have been suffering from a split peronality when He destroyed Sodom and Gamorra…

    He must have been facing an identity crisis when He sent an Angel to slay 185,000 Assyrians (2 Kings 19:35) who were fighting against Israel.

    Yep, God sure seems confused according to your little pet doctrine…

    May 24, 2012 at 10:09 am
  • Brian says:

    Michael
    As an interested Universalist I agree with every word you say. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. Nobody, even in the future ages, can enter Heaven until they accept the Lord Jesus Christ. The Bible prophesises that that time will come and every knee shall bow and to the glory (genuine praise) of God. There is other name under Heaven whereby a soul can be saved, There are no short cuts.

    February 16, 2012 at 10:39 pm
  • Dave says:

    Thank you Andre. I agree and share your frustration. Based loosely on the FB crowd, this idea is spreading very rapidly. Like you, I find that their theological acumen is seriously wanting. There is a disdain for any formal theological training combined with a willingness to listen to almost any off the wall theological statements. Just yesterday I pulled this quote from FB:

    “if the devil is the adamic or carnal nature of every man, and all men are perfected in Christ, then the devil is not going to get saved, but will simply cease to exist.”

    Not only is that nonsense, it is a patently unBiblical statement. But this is the kind of statement that gets the likes on FB. What is going on?

    Perhaps even more concerning, this is coming from several different directions. I have been studying and working with those involved in the Trinitarian Universalism as promoted by what used to be called the “Worldwide Church of God” and is now increasingly accepted in the New Covenant community as “Grace Communion International.” But people like Rob Bell and Thomas Talbott, who deny the reality of hell have no obvious connection with the TU groups.

    But you and I just want people to go to hell. It makes us happy to think of them burning forever. That’s the accusation they level against those of us who still believe what the Bible teaches.

    February 16, 2012 at 8:07 pm
  • Andre van der Merwe says:

    I have come to the conclusion that this new “fluffy” group of Grace preachers (who don’t want to be called Universalists, simply because they don’t like the label – but essentially their message is the same), have isolated themselves from the world to such an extent (only hanging out in churches and at conferences with BELIEVERS) that they have forgotten just how much certain people HATE God, REJECT Jesus and MOCK and SCORN the Holy Spirit.

    The hearts of some are so hardened that even if God Himself stood before them or a mighty miracle happened before their eyes, they would find some excuse to explain it away.

    I’ve talked with a few people like this recently, who have HEARD the Gospel and STILL refused to believe – they LOATHE God! Come on, who are we kidding here? God is ALL about RELATIONSHIP, and those who pull their noses up at Jesus are not saved!!

    What would you say about a Satanic high priest, who urinates on pictures of Jesus, slaughters babies to offer on an altar to Satan, KNOWS the Bible, KNOWS what Jesus has accomplished and STILL spits it all back in God’s face?? Yes there is grace even for such a person, but until they surrender their lives to God and ACCEPTS Jesus as Lord, His sacrifice doesn’t benefit them at all.

    AGAIN, I wonder when the last time was that any of these “preachers” spoke with a hard core atheist or God HATER in the street. My guess is however that they’d just sweep that encounter under the rug (like they do with most Bible verses that don’t line up with their theology) and carry on with their hidden agenda.

    Sorry for the rant, but DAMMIT this deception is spreading fast!! And all because people nowadays don’t go search the scriptures for themselves, but instead they rely on “the man of God” to interpret it for them…

    February 16, 2012 at 1:06 pm
  • Liz DuPont says:

    Good reasoning & well thought out, Brian. I am persuaded that man’s will is not stronger than God’s will & that anyone can (and will) be convinced of God’s saving grace, whether on this side of the veil or the other side. Paul tells us in I Corinthians that “if in THIS life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.” And the writer of Acts refers to “this Jesus, whom the heavens must retain until the RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS . . . ”

    January 30, 2012 at 11:46 pm
  • Brian says:

    Great discussion here and carried out with mutual respect a rare phenomenon on most blogs/forums nowadays. Ever tried debating on YouTube? They can destroy you there. It’s simply outrageous the abuse what YouTube allows.

    I am 67 and have been a Christian since 1975 and have spent years studying Bible and Bible theology. I have read all around Calvinism and totally reject its conclusions as unbiblical. I believe in free will but I also believe God is sovereign and uses His Spirit to influence our will. Until recently I rejected Universal Reconciliation as wishful thinking. I paid no attention to it and so knew little about its tenets. Now I am beginning to be persuaded otherwise.

    The reason is simple. There is clear Biblical evidence that God has PURPOSED to save all people and He has the POWER to save all people and He WILL save all people. The power is the Gospel.

    Thomas Talbott in his amazing book The Inescapable Love of God, sets out these three propositions in much more detail and using slightly different terminology than mine but he shows how that if you are an Arminian or a Calvinist you will only be able to go with two out of these three propositions. A Universalist can accept all three and do so with full backing from scripture. Let me assure you that I am a very careful student of the Bible and I am not prone to accepting just what any Tom, Dick or Harry throws at me but I can tell you this that with the evidence from scripture backed by the evidence of the original Hebrew and Greek languages and with the evidence from the history of the church for the firt five centuries there’s is a powerful case. Study it out yourself with an open mind as I did, before you reject it out of hand.

    In peace

    January 29, 2012 at 7:37 pm
  • Andre van der Merwe says:

    Carol, you will have to do WAAAYYYY better than that to offend me lol… :-)

    December 11, 2011 at 9:11 pm
  • Andre van der Merwe says:

    I’ve added a new section to the article called “WHEN Does a Person Receive the Holy Spirit?” Check it out!!

    December 11, 2011 at 9:10 pm
  • Carol Lucas Winkler says:

    Andre…i appreciate the information in your article. I agree. If i offended you…i am sorry. I appreciate your fearless boldness. God bless you!

    December 10, 2011 at 11:16 am
  • Shoshannah says:

    If, in the end, all are saved, regardless of what one does or believes, here on this earthly plane, then Jesus is a non-issue! It really doesn’t matter and “all roads lead to “heaven”!
    And yes, why bother evangelizing, why did Paul, Stephen and many, many others feel the need to preach Christ crucified and ultimately get fed to lions, get tortured, stoned, etc. if it really doesn’t matter what one believes???
    “But to as many as RECEIVED Him, to them gave He Power to become the Sons of God, even to them that BELIEVE on His Name.” John 1:12

    September 5, 2011 at 5:39 pm
  • Tobi says:

    Looked up some universalist sites today. Romans 5 and 2. Cor. 5 really are a mystery and when Jesus said “it is finished” than its finished.
    But there was not one universalist site that had to say something about faith.
    I like what Francois du Toit says: “the good news is, that you are included in what christ has done and that good news has the power to impart faith ” (freely quoted)
    And Faith is needed: Romans 3,25

    “Heaven and Hell are full of forgiven sinners” Robert F. Capon.

    September 4, 2011 at 8:09 pm
  • JLB says:

    Simply put if one -just one- person spends forever in Hell the grand purpose of God’s creation i.e eternal relationship with Him will have been circumvented by Satan. Evil will have the last laugh at having stolen one of God’s children and having the words of His mouth return void. Hell is real but not forever. It is a place of correction and it’s time is finite before it is cast into the lake of fire. “Every knee will bow..” Delve into Christian history and see that the concept of ‘eternal’ Hell was not part of original Christian belief till 400 years later. Little of Hell is even in the OT. Any mention of Hell for Adam/Eve? For Cain? Ever wonder why? Jesus is the ONLY way in. The only legal way for sure but He will have His desired end. Has Hell brought the world to Christ? Does fear ever bring love? We have been teaching Hell for a thousand years and folks it has not worked. Do we see churches full of joyful eager Christians spilling into the streets to spread the Good News. Love alone works and love is teaching the joyful news of what Christ has done so all can partake of His victory. We still preach, we still get souls ‘saved’, we still evangelize but from the foundation of joy not fear. We still warn people that they will suffer/enjoy the results of their actions. I am a Universalist and believe God gets the last laugh on evil and nothing -nothing! separates us from the love of Christ.
    Selah

    September 3, 2011 at 4:23 pm
  • sand highlyfavored crosby says:

    I believe the JESUITS who secretly infiltrate the church throughout the world may be responsible for Christian Universalism.
    The secret society is real, there is a black pope, and they are sent out into all society, especially in churches to bring us all back under the Pope. We are no longer called Heratics now, but separated bretheren. They tried to burn us all at the stake and wipe us out, sonow they are trying a different approach, of joining us.

    August 20, 2011 at 8:06 am
  • 100% Grace THROUGH FAITH says:

    Everyone just read comment #60.
    :P

    Props to Andre and the homies for defending the faith.
    As for the universalists…. man… i don’t even know…
    You almost confused me there…
    With all this modern gnosticism… read 1 John guys. John wrote
    it to battle gnosticism at the time. Jeez.

    In Grace through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ

    -joseph

    August 4, 2011 at 2:15 am
  • Nilla says:

    Sorry..not puppet :-) I meant of course a butterfly..don´t know where I got puppet from…sounded right somehow..strange:-)

    July 15, 2011 at 7:44 pm
  • Nilla says:

    Hi,
    especially Yvette, you said it sister..I believe you are absolutely right there..”for everything real there´s always a counterfeit”. It´s no coincidance that this teaching shows up in such a measure right now,when the church is about to be transformed into her ‘new’ clothes..Like a puppet she´s going through a metamorphosis and is being released from her cockoon..ready to fly, delivered from ‘old covenant living’ chained in traditions of man, doctrines of demons etc..It´s obvious that universalism is the parallell’grace-stream’ that the enemy is trying to lead the church into..
    However..there are most certainly views, perspectives like in every other teaching that we need to be very careful in not throwing away just because it sounds ‘universalistic’..there are truths everywhere..since ‘we’ are everywhere..no matter our labeling, names of the church..We so need to KNOW the Lord now..
    What I see is a kind of ‘new language’(like in 1984) which begins to develop, where the credibility of God’s word is more and more being watered down by new forms of expression .. words .. There are a lot of ‘mistranslations’ which are now ‘detected’ .. For example, instead of talking about being born again they say ‘awakening in Christ’ The new birth, heaven and hell is all more different states of minds..
    Because Jesus ‘lives in all’ … you just need to see it, and wake up in Him, and out of your illusion .. Everything breathes boundless love and grace, but to me it is a counterfeit .. It´s very much different from God´s.
    Hope you understood my english..being a swede as I am..:-) Bless you!

    July 15, 2011 at 7:40 pm
  • Yvette says:

    Hi!! I have been following this thread and discussion and I just wanted to add something simple.
    For everything ‘real’ there is always a counterfeit. Coming out of the traditions of man, doctrines of demons and legalism etc into the truth of grace (Jesus plus nothing)and we will find ourselves stumbling into the enemy’s counterfeit of grace; called universalism. It is just another twist of the truth to try push the Church back into powerlessness and lifelessness by ignoring or watering down the blood of Jesus. You cannot escape that.
    Love your posts, Andre, as well as your book!

    June 25, 2011 at 1:12 am
  • Andre van der Merwe says:

    Faith is simple trust in someone other than yourself. We all have that ability to trust for we are created that way. Trusting in someone is not a gift from the one your have trust in, you simply trust in what the person is telling you to be true …. this is faith – Sammy Bilyeu from Facebook

    God created man with free will. Even in the old covenant, the Jews were told to “choose”. When the new covenant came, God did not eradicate the ability to make a choice. God draws a person by His Spirit, gives them a measure of faith to believe and works to prepare their heart. The choice might be an almost inperceptable one, but there is a spark of understanding, of receiving that happens in a person’s heart. Without that reception, there is no reconcilation by man to God – Carol Grace Robinson from Facebook

    June 13, 2011 at 3:14 pm
  • Mike@Absolute Reconciliation Ministries says:

    The diaglogue is very intriguing and it seems the Bible is being used as a legal device rather than a guide that points to what God did in Christ. Ephesians 1:10 indicates God gathered all in the One and the One was Christ which is the mystery of His will He purposed in Himself(Eph 1:9). We in each our denominational lines say that we were crucified with Him and also raised with Him — that was the gathering and what was done for the one in the one was done for all.

    It is not that all have to touch Christ but that He–because all were in Him–have touched the all. God was exclusive in Christ alone but inclusive in that everyone was included in THE ONE.

    That is what Paul meant in Acts 4:12 There is no other name–for all were already gathered in that name. John 14:6 says “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life…” sounds like an exclusive statement except all were gathered in the way the truth and the life–and God was there too (2 Cor 5:19)

    We should enjoy gleaning about our God from each other and understand He still speaks to us through Holy Spirit. Each person has a part of God’s progressive truth and it is a joy to put the pieces together…..

    May 27, 2011 at 1:54 am
  • Andre van der Merwe says:

    David Anthony from Facebook:

    Universalism would have you believe All are saved and it isn’t biblical.
    Those without the Holy Spirit are Not His. And are Not IN Jesus and are not KNOWN by Jesus.

    Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38 NKJV

    Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Rom 8:9 NKJV

    I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. John 10:14 NKJV

    Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:22-24 NKJV

    May 18, 2011 at 7:19 pm
  • Anneline Breetzke says:

    Dear Grady
    Thanks for your gracious reply. I may not believe in universalism, but I’ve really appreciated the way you’ve handled this conversation.
    Thank you for that.
    Love,
    Anneline

    May 17, 2011 at 11:34 am
  • Grady Brown says:

    After having my theology called “trailer trash,” I have little hope of being able to have a civil conversation here…but I tried. However, that’s not the worst I have been called. I once had a fellow tell me my eschatology was scatology. One final word from me before I abandon this conversation. I know of no Biblical Universalist who has said that we received the Holy Spirit 2000 years ago. Our redemption was paid for on the Cross 2000 years ago, but we are not the only Christians who make that point. At the Cross we were all forgiven in a LEGAL sense for all our sins–past, present, and future. However, that forgiveness becomes VITAL at the point where we realize our hopelessness apart from God and turn to Him in faith. I am not talking about the hopelessness of an eternal destination, but the hopelessness “in this world” that Paul talked about in Ephesians 2:12–”…at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God IN THE WORLD.” PAUL’S CONCERN WAS NOT ABOUT GOING TO HEAVEN WHEN YOU DIE, BUT ABOUT LIVING AN OVERCOMING, ABUNDANT LIFE IN THE HERE AND NOW. We are indeed born with a sin nature that needs to be dealt with. Those sins were paid for on the Cross, and we appropriate that blessing through faith (believing that our sins were paid for at the Cross and trusting in Jesus as the “captain of our salvation”–Hebrews 2:10). This is standard orthodox soteriology, and I subscribe to it whole-heartedly. The difference between you and me is that I believe the offer of salvation does not end at death. I believe that one can be saved by grace in this life or by judgment in the hereafter. Which brings me to Anneline’s question (comment #49). I cannot conceive of anyone coming face-to-face with the eternal reality that Jesus is Lord and not falling before Him in abject submission…which is exactly what Yahweh through Isaiah prophesied would happen. Read Isaiah 45:21-25, or go back and read it in my first comment (#39). I think that you will see that the context is that of EVERYONE being called to submit to Lord Jesus and declaring, “Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength.” We all have something altogether glorious to look forward to, and whether or not you believe in universalism now, you will believe in it then! God’s best to all of you!

    May 17, 2011 at 4:55 am
  • Michael van Niekerk says:

    André, I’m going to pester you on your previous post. Just to see what you think.

    Isn’t believing having faith? If you believed then surely you must have used faith? Did prophets prophecy in OT without the indwelling Spirit? Can users/workers of faith use faith without the indwelling Spirit? Because it is not just semantics, if you are saved by grace through faith and faith only comes with the HS AFTER you’ve believed(?), it is impossible to get saved then.
    In terms of being saved, what is the timeline that goes on when you are saved? I think it is applicable to the discussion and contents of this page.

    In my opinion (and I say this with very little research and is thus not the infallible word) it goes like this:
    1) Something compels you to believe. Be it a prophecy, spoken word of knowledge, someone witnessing, a healing, a miracle – something in your mind switches on and says “Hey, I know Jesus lives” / “I know I need Jesus as a saviour”. Mostly it is the goodness of God that leads man to repentance.
    2) When that switchy switched, your soul already submitted. When you confess with your mouth and believed in your heart/soul that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead you are saved. Rom10:9
    3) Then, as seal of your salvation, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit. 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; Eph. 1:13,14; Rom. 8:16 and He inhabits you. (Don’t know where laying of hands comes into play).

    How does this apply if a person is already dead? It is only speculation if he will be able to bind himself to a thought/decisions as monumental as salvation.

    Thoughts?

    May 15, 2011 at 10:24 pm
  • Andre van der Merwe says:

    Faith COMES by hearing the truth, people aren’t born with it. Faith is listed as a gift of the Spirit, who starts dwelling inside people AFTER they believe the truth.

    May 15, 2011 at 9:34 pm
  • Andre van der Merwe says:

    A question that Universalists find very difficult to answer is this: “When did they receive the Holy Spirit?”

    Most will say: “2000 years ago.”

    This implies that they enter this world straight from their mother’s womb ALREADY filled with the Spirit. This also means that they NEVER had a sinful nature. And here is the problem:

    If they never had a sinful nature, why then are they not 100% perfect in their conduct? Why do their deeds not reflect the fact that they were NEVER under the influence of a sinful nature?

    Their answer to this will obviously be: “Because our minds are not 100% renewed yet.”

    But if they were NEVER separated from God and they NEVER had a sinful nature (according to them), what then do they need to renew their minds from? Wasn’t the Holy Spirit there every step of the way, leading them into truth?

    I’m sorry, it just doesn’t add up…

    May 15, 2011 at 6:58 pm
  • Michael van Niekerk says:

    Perish in NT: G622 : http://bit.ly/lKRlgC

    Absolute faith and absolute grace is like Sodium and Chloride – both are poison in isolation, but the mix of those two is vitally important for life.

    Let me explain:
    I see the infinite grace (@dr brown et al) as a pacifying notion that you can sit back and let God do the rest. Why evangelize? What about the great commission? Rob Bell and his Love Wins makes some compelling arguments, but you do win more arguments if you frame the debate yourself. So keep in mind. I’m convinced of God’s love for all mankind, I’m not convinced in man’s acceptance of Him. I’m convinced in Jesus’ finished work on the cross, I’m not convinced in that all have faith (believe) in Him. What happens after death is a very nice scapegoat to put all your pet doctrines in because how can one disprove many of such notions? Now that you see everything after you’ve kicked the bucket, will you have more faith to see what is real?

    I see the infinite faith as a manipulative Jesus removal. You manipulate God with “your faith” to “move His hand.” Don’t get healed? Call a fasting on the church. Don’t get a job? Let everyone stand and agree for finances to be loosed.
    What about Jesus? Wasn’t He stricken for our iniquities, by His stripes where we healed? Didn’t He Himself became poor so that we can be rich? Infinite faith or self faith doesn’t work, it only applies to get that which Jesus has already given you (by grace).

    But, you are saved BY grace THROUGH faith. Both parties play a role. It is not either/or, it is and… Faith appropriates that which grace has already given. Faith is the debit card and ATM, grace the bank account. Grace for the non-believer has already been deposited in his/her account (te tele stai), but the non-believer still needs faith to get that salvation.

    Thus, I reject Universalism due to this – infinite grace + infinite faith. An atheist still need faith to accept Jesus when Judgement day comes, although grace has already supplied the deliverance. The question is still – will the atheist be able/allowed to have faith when he is dead?

    May 15, 2011 at 4:23 pm

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